The Impact of Sleep on Brain Health

00:00:03: Welcome to the Brain Health Mission Podcast, exploring how science,

00:00:07: policy

00:00:07: and everyday choices shape the health of your brain

00:00:10: and what you can do

00:00:11: to protect

00:00:12: it.

00:00:15: Hello and welcome back to the Brain Health Mission Podcast, where we explore the science, strategies and stories behind brain health in neurology.

00:00:25: Your host, Dr.

00:00:27: Jana Middelford-Hoff, neurologist and treasurer of the European Academy of Neurology.

00:00:34: In today's episode, we are looking into the fascinating link between sleep and brain health.

00:00:41: And I am joined actually by a very special guest, colleague Inge de Klerk, neurologist and certified sleep expert with a broad complementary pack of skills and also the author of the book The kracht van slappen, my Dutch is probably not perfect, so I have the English version as well, the power of sleep.

00:01:09: We must start with a quick introduction, Inge.

00:01:12: Could you tell our listeners a little about yourself and your journey, how you became interested in sleep?

00:01:19: Yes, thank you.

00:01:21: Well, I was working as a more like to neurologist neurologist for many years in a hospital in Brussels, but the special interest in brain already, I must say, I wasn't.

00:01:34: There wasn't a neurologist to do ENGs with much pleasure, but been big interest in neuroscience since I was doing my studies in neurology.

00:01:44: And getting so many people in my consultation complaining of fatigue, of not sleeping well, of being very impacted by that really revealed my interest on sleeping.

00:01:59: So that's when I started because at the time when I... became neurologist, we didn't really have a lot of schooling about sleeping bizarre as it sounds.

00:02:08: And so we started to a lot of international courses, et cetera, et cetera.

00:02:13: And then more and more started sleeping into everything that's related to sleeping and waking problems.

00:02:18: And that's how I actually ended up where I work now in the University Hospital of Antwerp.

00:02:24: But I also, and that's why I think it's so important to bring sleep health, the power of sleep, and also this connection, et cetera, to a much broader perspective than just the hospital setting.

00:02:37: So I founded my own company.

00:02:40: And I started giving keynotes of workshops and lectures in organizations and companies.

00:02:47: And I'm still doing this.

00:02:48: I'm doing this for about ten years now.

00:02:50: And I love it because it's great to be able to reach so many people, to be sharing my expertise on the domain.

00:02:58: And of course, I combined this with my authorship.

00:03:00: I have written a little bit more books than you said, but they're not translated in English, actually.

00:03:07: They're translated in French and in Dutch.

00:03:11: Thank you.

00:03:12: Lovely to have you here.

00:03:13: And even though the awareness of the meaning of sleep has risen the last years, you still, I would say, quite unique.

00:03:21: Being a neurologist, being a brain scientist, and so interested and competent in sleep.

00:03:27: So that's also why we're quite pleased to have you here with us.

00:03:31: I'm pleased to be here.

00:03:32: But before

00:03:32: we delve into the connection between brain health and sleep, what is actually sleep and why do we do it?

00:03:41: Well sleep is basically a neurobiological state which is very different than the waking state.

00:03:51: And there's a little bit more to say about that, of course.

00:03:54: So of course, in that neurobiological state, your consciousness is different.

00:03:59: Your brain network, interconnectivity is completely different.

00:04:03: Our perceptions are different.

00:04:05: But very important to that is why do we have, why do we switch to that different neurobiological state during the night?

00:04:12: Because it's essential.

00:04:14: It's actually sleep is essential to living, to help, because it serves our regeneration immune system, microbiote, for example, cognitive regeneration.

00:04:28: It serves homeostasis.

00:04:31: It serves resetting.

00:04:32: It serves also waste clearance.

00:04:36: Another very important thing about it is, as I said, it's essential.

00:04:41: It's also a twenty-four-hour business.

00:04:44: We cannot separate waking from sleeping.

00:04:50: Everything you do during your waking state will influence your sleeping state and vice versa.

00:04:58: You have to look at being awake and being asleep.

00:05:01: as a complete picture and meaning also that that sleeping is actually really a non-negotiable, negotiable and necessary biological state.

00:05:12: You cannot live without sleeping.

00:05:15: So it's something we need to be able to have energy and to live and to enjoy our lives.

00:05:21: So it's an essential thing and it's just part of the whole picture.

00:05:28: That was very nicely put and I like the way you're explaining that it's not being wake and then sleeping.

00:05:36: It's a whole.

00:05:37: And I think that is so important that the one thing influences the other.

00:05:41: And I think that's good.

00:05:42: Yeah,

00:05:42: and of course, and you know, a lot happens during sleep.

00:05:45: So it's really sexy thing sleeping, actually.

00:05:50: It's a really important thing.

00:05:54: It is.

00:05:55: And I know, you know, there is a saying at least here in Norway and probably in other countries as well, that if If something is very problematic, you should sleep on it.

00:06:05: Do you say

00:06:05: that?

00:06:05: Yes, we do that.

00:06:06: We have an expression in Dutch as well.

00:06:10: Yes, definitely.

00:06:11: That's

00:06:12: very interesting.

00:06:14: But then if we go back to the connection between sleep and brain health, why is it damaging to our brain if we get too little of the sleep?

00:06:25: And how can that... affect our cognitive function.

00:06:28: I have a picture that I would like to share with you and see if you agree because... A couple of years ago it was revealed that the cerebrospinal fluid in the brain is not only there to avoid you from losing your brain cells when you turn your head or something like that, but it is also used to clean your brain during the night.

00:06:47: It's a washing machine, so to say.

00:06:50: And I sometimes to patients and also to relatives use the picture that if you wash your house and you do it in half an hour, that's much less thoroughly than if you would do it like in four hours.

00:07:05: I mean, the house is definitely cleaner after four hours.

00:07:08: Is that something that you can relate to?

00:07:12: Why you have to sleep a certain time before all the positive effects come?

00:07:17: Yes, definitely.

00:07:18: It's a whole process.

00:07:20: It's an interplay also.

00:07:21: And we translate it by measuring sleep, by putting electrodes on the brain.

00:07:26: And we measure the waves actually.

00:07:29: So it's a whole interplay of networks that get different connectivity.

00:07:34: different activations, so neurotransmitters function differently, and then you get indeed the process of the famous waste clearance.

00:07:43: As we call it, it's been called the glim-fatting system.

00:07:47: Now, Bernard completely agreeing on this terminology, but it's true that there is some kind of a waste clearance that happens in the sleep.

00:07:58: probably a little bit more during the deeper sleep stages.

00:08:02: But it's true that as we are active throughout the day, our brain, our neurons are firing through all the process that we are going through during the day, it is indeed clear.

00:08:12: as in to bring your analogy with the house.

00:08:15: If you have a lot of partying going on in the house, you need a lot of cleaning.

00:08:20: And actually we are kind of partying throughout the whole day.

00:08:25: giving attention, doing everything we're doing.

00:08:28: So a lot of substances actually accumulate in the brain while we're awake.

00:08:33: So that's why we need it to be cleared.

00:08:35: And that's one of the essential functions of sleep.

00:08:39: And that's why exactly?

00:08:40: that's one of the links between sleep and brain health, definitely.

00:08:44: So too little sleep is definitely... not very good for you, you can't clean your brain as thoroughly as you should and recreation and all the other aspects that you have been delving into, but is it also a fact that too much sleep can be bad for you?

00:09:02: Yes, it's... What is said also, there's less attention also in research fields on too much sleep.

00:09:10: Of course, if you have a really high sleep need, for example, you sleep like ten hours a night and you still don't feel refreshed, that's definitely a sign that you should get it tested also.

00:09:23: But there are some evidence that sleeping too much might be harmful to for health and well-being.

00:09:29: And of course, you have a lot of characteristic conditions which are linked with hypersomnia, with insomnia and with hypersomnia also, yes.

00:09:38: That's

00:09:40: true.

00:09:40: So it's the balance, wouldn't you say?

00:09:44: too little and it's not too much but it's to find the perfect amount

00:09:49: which is on average seven to nine hours.

00:09:55: I was going to ask you that.

00:09:56: so we have that and all listeners should note that seven to nine hours set by one of the foremost experts in Europe.

00:10:04: That is very good.

00:10:05: But then we have established that sleep is crucial for your brain function and that seven to nine hours is good for you.

00:10:14: But how is it that sleep affects our cognitive performance and mental health?

00:10:23: What are the symptoms if you sleep too little?

00:10:27: You can divide it more or less like in acute symptoms that the ones that you would feel immediately and the more chronic side effects of a lack of sleep.

00:10:37: and maybe just put it right also.

00:10:39: We just talked about how much sleep you need.

00:10:42: It's important of course that really restorative sleep depends on more than just quantity.

00:10:49: I briefly usually divide by three pillars of restorative sleep, which is, of course, the quality and the quantity and the timing.

00:10:59: And timing actually takes regularity and, of course, the respect as much as possible for your bio-rhythm.

00:11:07: So these are really three very important aspects that lead to restorative sleep.

00:11:12: So it's important that if you talk about what happens when you do not sleep enough, that it can be one of the pillars.

00:11:18: three of them, but that's all three of them are actually equally important.

00:11:24: And so what happens?

00:11:25: in cutely and brief term, we know there's a lot of cognitive functions that will not work as good as they should think mostly about.

00:11:35: attention span, a working memory, for example, that acute sleep deprivation can bring the capacity of your working memory down to like, thirty eight percent, for example.

00:11:47: So you get slower, you're less alert, you're less attentive, your memory, even one night of sleep deprivation will harm somehow your memory capacity.

00:12:00: So that's cute.

00:12:02: Now, every sleep deprivation will come with a pro inflammatory state.

00:12:07: So it's like you don't sleep.

00:12:09: It's not sleeping enough.

00:12:10: It's like having to fight against an infection.

00:12:14: Your immune system gets into the defensive mode.

00:12:19: I have to defend myself.

00:12:20: So we can see that either after one night of sleep deprivation, but it's more and more important to look at the big picture on the long term because it's there that we see the most.

00:12:34: So, for example, there is this pretty neat study done by Clemence Gavias, it's a University of California team, was published in the year of four, where they went looking at scans, a brain MRIs of people who had at least three problems with sleeping, was like sleep deprivation was one of the, you know, being awake too much, for example.

00:12:58: And they followed, they were looked at at fifteen years of a time span of fifteen years, and the bad sleepers had a brain that was two point eight on average, two point eight.

00:13:09: years older, just to give you one example.

00:13:12: So that's of course, it's not because it's looking older on a brain scan that it really means that you're getting dementia, but other fields have shown a link between development and progression of, for example, Alzheimer's disease with people who systematically do not have enough custodiancy.

00:13:35: So

00:13:35: it's true.

00:13:36: But I sit here and probably the listeners too and we have sort of a bad gut feeling because all of us have probably had a face in our juvenile time where we went partying, you know, stayed up all night.

00:13:50: I come from Norway.

00:13:51: We have the summers where the sun never sets.

00:13:55: It might get late in the night.

00:13:58: Is it bad for you later in life if you enjoy the pleasures of the night as young person?

00:14:06: Is it that bill to be paid?

00:14:10: Honestly, I don't know if this has been researched.

00:14:13: I think it's really difficult also to put this into a study protocol.

00:14:19: Yes, of course, you also have some rain dynamics and as young person, what do we do when we go partying?

00:14:27: We sleep much more, we sleep later.

00:14:30: So you might have some acute sleep deprivation, but actually what we do is we catch up with it because we do sleep extension.

00:14:38: what everybody needs to do because sleep deprivation is a debt and what you do with debts?

00:14:44: you have to pay them off and of course there's a lot of discussion.

00:14:50: and is sleep extension really effective against sleep deprivation?

00:14:57: and of course then you have to go and look on how the protocols are made.

00:15:00: So if you have these studies where they put four people into four hours of sleep during ten days and they allow them to sleep in, to sleep longer, to the sleep extension for like two days, of

00:15:12: course

00:15:13: all the inflammatory parameters will not have been restored.

00:15:17: so then they conclude sleep extension does not work.

00:15:20: but that's not what happens in real life.

00:15:22: what happens in real life is mostly people are like have an average of six hours during the working week and then if you have two to three night of sleep extension.

00:15:33: then you do see in those study protocols that yes, inflammatory parameters do restore.

00:15:39: So I think it's an important nuance.

00:15:41: And as of course, as young parents where you get kind of sleep deprivation also, bad CP kids or students are partying, I think apparently if you look at how many young parents are there on this planet and who grow older too, I don't think it's the parents who are relatively more demented or more neurodegenerative diseases.

00:16:05: So just intuitively from that, you could say that some periods of sea deprivation don't necessarily lead to bad.

00:16:14: It's really chronic sustained sea deprivation.

00:16:18: where you really see those links with cardiovascular health.

00:16:21: You see someone who sleeps on average.

00:16:24: five hours or less during many years will have four and five percent more chances to have a heart attack.

00:16:32: An average six hour or less within thirteen years you will have a seven point five higher risk of obesity.

00:16:40: So it's like this sustained sleep deprivation that builds up throughout years and that's not caught up with that will be most bad for your health and enjoyable.

00:16:50: I

00:16:53: think that was a super message and it sort of calms me down and probably the listeners as well.

00:16:59: It's not the sense of your youth that is going to damage your brain health.

00:17:04: Then again, I have to say that I never was a night owl.

00:17:08: I usually, I can't stay up all night.

00:17:11: I get very, I'm like starting early and finishing off quite early as well.

00:17:16: But in my adult years, now in my fifties, I really have problems if I stay the whole night somewhere, if I go very late to bed.

00:17:26: And is it so that the... Amount of sleep that we need or rest changes during our life.

00:17:34: Not that much actually, so all those between... These are the National Health Foundation guidelines.

00:17:42: All those between eighteen and sixty-four need that average of seven to nine.

00:17:47: You see the graphs, there are still just like the six little bit in red, meaning yes, if you would sleep six hours, but it's really good quality sleep, it's a little bit less considered as a sleep death.

00:17:58: And then if you go over the sixty-five,

00:18:00: etc.,

00:18:01: it doesn't really go down.

00:18:03: That's that much.

00:18:04: It will still be around seven, seven to eight hours that you need.

00:18:09: So of course, everything depends on how active you are, how is your life organized, how much do you do, how much do you build up sleep pressure by being active, etc.

00:18:20: So it was a lot of other elements that can be mistake.

00:18:23: But in general, generally speaking, guidelines speaking.

00:18:27: does sleep need, does not really decline that much.

00:18:31: You do know that sleep quality kind of goes down a little bit by growing older.

00:18:36: You would see a little bit less, the deep sleep would be a little bit of, a little bit less deep, let's say, that's what we call the delta power, because as these really slow brainwaves would be not as well built up, a little bit more awakenings, of course, but there the whole question still ongoing, is it getting older?

00:18:57: brings the sleep that's a bit less restorative, or is it because of your lifestyle,

00:19:04: etc.,

00:19:04: that makes your sleep less restorative, that you get more responded or degenerative diseases, etc.

00:19:12: This is a thing that hasn't been built here about yet.

00:19:17: That's very interesting.

00:19:18: I think you're into something about the restoration phase, that probably, to some extent, distinguishes adults.

00:19:27: from youth is that the youth are able to sleep, if they are deprived of sleep, they can sleep until one or two o'clock in this Saturday afternoon, whereas this is more problematic to the older of us.

00:19:43: We will sleep lighter, as you say, have less deep sleep.

00:19:47: And probably we're so used to rise in the morning that to sleep until the afternoon is very hard for us.

00:19:55: So that might also be a fact that I'm not the night owl that I used to be or never was.

00:20:00: You're probably a neuron chronotype.

00:20:03: So that's probably because you are also partly genetically determined to not be a night owl.

00:20:08: I am, for example.

00:20:10: So I am really... That's so cool.

00:20:12: I love... the nights and I love sleeping later.

00:20:16: But another point in that I think it's very important talking about brain health in general and influence on how you deal with your life on that restorative power of your sleep and does your brain health is that of course when you grow older you start working you get kids and we just like pile it all up and we connect it all the time.

00:20:37: and of course with the upcoming of all the smartphones social media they really master you, they overtake your life, they fill it up, we get it so filled up that of course a lot of people now also have this hyper arousal during the night.

00:20:54: So it's not just getting older, it's how you deal with the whole thing of workload, etc.

00:21:02: And there's a lot of things we even getting older or anybody at any age stage of life can do to avoid.

00:21:10: even more haiko, or even more being, having fragmented sleep,

00:21:16: etc.,

00:21:16: having less restorative sleep.

00:21:17: It's, as I said, it's in the day.

00:21:20: It's how we deal with your day, how we deal with the challenges of your life in general, that will influence how restorative your sleep will be.

00:21:29: So, how could you take care of your brain health?

00:21:35: That is so nicely phrased.

00:21:36: and we are going to go back a little to the disconnect thing because I know that's one of your major things to sort of inform the public about.

00:21:46: But before we go to that, I would like to ask you, Inge, what is your favourite or perhaps also the myth that you hate the most about sleep?

00:21:55: Is it something that you could share with the listeners and me?

00:21:59: There

00:21:59: are several.

00:22:00: Maybe in the light of what we are talking about now is the very sleep macho thing of five to five hours.

00:22:10: You know, that's really... And because what do people say?

00:22:14: you are okay with a little amount of sleep per night, I can deal with it because I'm not tired.

00:22:22: That's what a lot of people say.

00:22:24: I'm not tired, so I don't need a lot of sleep.

00:22:28: And there's the booby trap, actually.

00:22:31: It's not because you're not feeling the tiredness that you're not being affected by the lack of sleep.

00:22:38: Everybody will have that pro-inflammatory sleep.

00:22:40: Okay.

00:22:41: We have about three to four percent of the population who has a genetic.

00:22:46: If there's a few genes now determined, we call it familiar short sleepers and they're fine with five to six hours.

00:22:54: But that's just three to four percent of the population.

00:22:58: You spoke so nicely about what we do during the day being important for what happens during the night connected to the sleep.

00:23:08: And we know that physical activity is good for you, not only for your brain health in general and for not being depressed and so on, but also actually for your sleep.

00:23:19: And I found a very interesting fun fact actually, Inge, that it's not that you do something, but it has also been postulated that it's what you do that matters.

00:23:31: And it was a recent study from Thailand, and quite interesting actually, that showed that exercise that strengthens muscles rather than aerobic exercise or combination exercise was actually the most effective way to enhance sleep quality.

00:23:49: Does that seem familiar to you?

00:23:51: Should we encourage people to to build their strength and not only to run on the mills.

00:23:58: I think it's to be seen in a large spectrum from a large perspective too.

00:24:03: Now I don't know what the average age of the participants of the study was.

00:24:08: You know, give them information on that.

00:24:11: I think they were older.

00:24:12: I think they were

00:24:13: older.

00:24:13: It doesn't surprise me because of course, when we get older, you get sarcopenia.

00:24:18: So your muscle mass, like you get a muscle high foot, high foot coughing.

00:24:24: And we know that it comes with... neurotoxic.

00:24:29: So the muscle breakdown is a little bit neurotoxic.

00:24:34: So then that doesn't surprise me at all that doing strength training.

00:24:40: Well, it's definitely very positive for your health, for your muscle health, but there isn't some studies that show that if you do regular strength training that you get more trophic factors and that are myokinins that are produced, for example.

00:24:55: So now I don't see I directly deline between good sleep and that.

00:25:01: But I wouldn't restrict it to that.

00:25:02: For example, there are very neat also Asian studies about Tai Chi and Chi Kung and sleep health in older women, for example.

00:25:11: That seems to be particularly effective in older women.

00:25:15: And I always put the bear very low.

00:25:19: It's like physical activity.

00:25:21: You also have this other.

00:25:22: Greek study of the standard tachyside, as I recall well, is saying the Vilpa meaning a very intensive lifestyle physical activity.

00:25:35: So meaning that if you have regular one to two to three minutes, vigorous, serious vigorous, vigorous a physical activity as a lifestyle, you incorporate it into it regularly during the day.

00:25:49: That is protective too, for example.

00:25:52: And now we call more with Tomor talking about brain health.

00:25:55: really basically sleep.

00:25:56: But then you have other studies that showing that if you walk half an hour a day in the morning, that after six weeks, you get sleep quality and duration improvement.

00:26:07: And then you get people who say, I walk ten thousand steps a day and I still sleep badly.

00:26:14: And I can understand that.

00:26:17: I can understand that because of course there's more to when you have it's.

00:26:20: I think it's important also to just and these two little things here.

00:26:25: One hand, it's important that we all take care of our restorative power of our sleep, to have restorative sleep.

00:26:32: But then on the other hand, of course, you have real sleep.

00:26:35: troubles or sleep disturbances, sleep disorders.

00:26:38: And like, for example, if you have insomnia, it's true, it's clear that only doing the physical activity will not get you out of insomnia.

00:26:47: So it's important, of course, to not too much intermingled things.

00:26:51: I think everything is for everybody having a sleep disorder or not.

00:26:55: It's important to bring into our daily lives the mindset and the lifestyle activities that help us improve.

00:27:03: that restorative sleep.

00:27:04: On the other hand, if you have a sleeping disorder, of course, it's important to get help, to get it recognized, to get it diagnosed, and to have the evidence-based treatments for those.

00:27:15: It's two important things.

00:27:19: So physical activity is good for you, but you also need to have the whole perspective.

00:27:24: It won't save you alone if you have a serious sleeping disorder.

00:27:28: Wouldn't that be correct?

00:27:30: Yeah,

00:27:30: super.

00:27:32: It's fantastic to listen to you because you have such an enthusiasm about the theme and about sleep and also giving very good advices also for practical life.

00:27:44: And I

00:27:45: have to ask you, you already told me a little about feeling that sleep had been neglected in psychology and in medicine in general, but what motivated you actually to write your books?

00:27:57: And now I find that there are two books, at least there are probably more.

00:28:01: And what key lessons, yeah, even more.

00:28:03: And that is so good because I think doctors who write books are important ambassadors for medicine.

00:28:12: And especially in this setting, we need you being ambassadors for brain health.

00:28:16: So, but what kind of key lessons do you hope people take into their daily lives after reading your books?

00:28:24: The one is definitely the one that we've been talking about, that the good night sleep starts from the start of the day.

00:28:30: And one of the things I've really put a lot of attention to is the importance of the right light at the right time.

00:28:38: get a lot of daylight as from the start of the day or the equivalence of daylight and in the evening hours we need to dim it.

00:28:45: So that light is the very, very important driver, time-giver, we call it the zeitgeber in German, to the functioning of our master clock, that very important central clock we have in the hypothalamus that will be managing all the rhythms, for example.

00:29:04: So that's definitely a thing I put a lot of attention to.

00:29:07: Also, the other element, for example, and that was more the last book, Brain Breath.

00:29:11: So there's three books that have been written in French as I'm Dutch, and my mother tongue is Dutch, but two of them have been translated in French.

00:29:19: And I would love to have been translated in English.

00:29:21: So if anybody is an editor here listening, please do contact me.

00:29:27: Feel free.

00:29:28: Just in a moment.

00:29:29: Yeah, because they're there.

00:29:32: best sellers and that's why I'm so happy that and that's basically why I do it actually and that's what drives me in everything I do.

00:29:40: We need good science communication.

00:29:43: There's a lot of overpopularizing also, which is not always that good, because then you have these TikTok movies.

00:29:51: You'll have to put a sticker on your lips, and then you'll see better, for example.

00:29:56: No, we need good science communication based on Torah science, but translated to people.

00:30:04: It's fascinating.

00:30:05: to do it actually and I do it so many years now and that's actually what the books are about also.

00:30:11: There's so many people who need the knowledge, who need the practical tools, just delight to be able to... to have the skills to do it.

00:30:20: So, yeah, that's why that's one of the reasons.

00:30:22: And so the delight is definitely important.

00:30:24: And also during the day, during the day, taking care of your regular physical and mental disconnection.

00:30:33: And there's a lot of ways to do it.

00:30:34: Like, for example, micro pauses, it's so important.

00:30:37: not just that you get overwinded and hyper aroused and then trying to go to sleep as if as if it's normal that you would sleep when you are busy and active and scrolling and running just before going to bed.

00:30:54: elements also.

00:30:55: I studied philosophy a long time ago and I like to put some of that into also health.

00:31:01: steeping is a lifestyle and a mindset and it's also about how are you dealing with your life and the charges and challenges of life and how are you willing to look at that differently.

00:31:12: I think that's an important point that I share too.

00:31:16: Although you can hear her listeners, you can't see Ingen.

00:31:19: That's actually pity because she's radiating that enthusiasm for singing.

00:31:24: She's

00:31:25: strong not only in what she's saying but also in how she's acting.

00:31:30: So nice.

00:31:30: It's so fascinating to meet such persons that are so dedicated in their field of expertise.

00:31:37: But we talked a little.

00:31:39: earlier about disconnecting.

00:31:41: And I know that's a slogan for you.

00:31:43: That's something you are very concerned about.

00:31:45: You already said a little, but how can disconnection, you call it a healthy disconnection from devices and digital things, make us sleep better?

00:31:59: It comes with the element, I've just already talked a little bit about it, that one of the reasons we get bad sleep is being under chronic non ventilated stress action.

00:32:14: stress is basically a very normal reaction.

00:32:17: it's life saving sometimes and it's fine to have stress and acute stress but the.

00:32:22: The problem is, and that's one of the neurophysiological backgrounds, for example, of insomnia, but also of some kinds of non-starch sleep, is that if you get into the chronic stress strain, it comes also with that true inflammatory state, for example.

00:32:39: And we know that affects how rain networks function, for example, and we know it makes your sleep less restorative.

00:32:46: So an important element there is that, and that's why it's so important that... Also, again, it happens during the day.

00:32:55: But for example, during the day when we are trying to keep focus and get our deadlines to really try to do all the work we have to do, we constantly activate, for example, the executive network and the task positive network.

00:33:11: That's one that is pretty sensitive to that over-stimulation and being over-activated.

00:33:19: And one of the possible explanations is not only the chronic stress and the pro-inflammatory state, but also, for example, that if you get hyper-excitement in those networks, that the very exciting neurotransmitters like glutamate might accumulate, that might be, for example, bad, too.

00:33:40: And we know that.

00:33:40: So one who is hyper-stressed, overstressed during double day, will sleep less.

00:33:44: One who sleep less, sleep less.

00:33:46: definitely is linked with more neurodegenerative disease also.

00:33:51: That's why it comes all together.

00:33:56: It comes all together but we need to give some practical advice because there may be listeners out there and then we think about listeners who don't have a disease because there are diseases connected to to sleep.

00:34:10: You already mentioned depression, for instance.

00:34:12: You can have restless legs.

00:34:14: There can be pain.

00:34:15: That is the cause that you are waking and so on.

00:34:18: And of course, these need to be addressed.

00:34:20: But if you are a healthy person and you're sitting there and thinking, my sleeping pattern is not perfect or rather not good at all.

00:34:30: I sleep too little.

00:34:31: I fall asleep too late.

00:34:33: I wake too early.

00:34:34: I need to to wake.

00:34:36: I run to the bathroom like a foot.

00:34:38: times in the night and not have an obvious reason for that.

00:34:42: Are there two recommendations that you could give the listeners?

00:34:47: how to improve their sleep?

00:34:48: Yes, it all starts with how you start your day.

00:34:52: So the first very important recommendation is when you wake up.

00:34:57: Ideally, you wake up as much as possible at a time that coincides with your chronotype.

00:35:03: That's the ideal situation.

00:35:05: or as much as possible.

00:35:07: As soon as you wake up, you do a little bit of a physical activity like a stretching.

00:35:13: You drink a big glass of water and you try to expose yourself to as much as bright light as possible, ideally.

00:35:22: daylight, of course, if it's still dark when you wake up, that it might be wake-up lights, these light alarms, or you buy yourself these lights, boxes, and of course you don't need to use them as light therapy, but you put them somewhere nearby while you are having your breakfast, for example, and the breakfast is an important one also, but on the right time according to your chronotype.

00:35:48: So that would be a really good start of the not helping you have more energy, but definitely helping you sleep better as well.

00:35:57: Because one of the things about light is if you, and that's what's so neat about it, if you expose yourself to bright light as from the morning, and that's not smartphone lights, to be sure, and it's really bright, heavy lights, then you will, via your eyes, will signal it to your central clock, and the central clock from there on will will send those messages.

00:36:21: Helping you offset your monatonic production.

00:36:24: so you stop your monatonic production firmly in the morning, it helps you make it better.

00:36:29: the next night.

00:36:30: That's when and it also helps you to get the cortisol awakening response going and the cortisol awakening response is a very important peak of cortisol.

00:36:39: we need to start your energy for example.

00:36:41: So you really give those rhythms a boost.

00:36:45: So that will be one.

00:36:46: start your day with those that ritual and you would already be so much better off.

00:36:52: So that would be set to one recommendation and another one would be If you are heavily active during the day or you're saying, I don't have time to stop because there's so many work to do, so much to do, then it's time to stop.

00:37:07: Meaning that you will be so much more performant.

00:37:12: less fatigued in the end of the day, you will be better in connecting with others, with your family, you'll be less irritable.

00:37:19: if you take regularly like say every thirty to let's say forty five minutes a micropause.

00:37:26: And a micropause is definitely not a digital part, so it's not, your brain tells you you have to stop because you're not really focused anymore, so you take your smartphone, definitely not.

00:37:36: A real qualitative micropause is like doing an intensive physical activity.

00:37:42: running the stairs up and down, doing some squats behind your office chair, doing some rolling with your shoulders, whatever.

00:37:51: Or you just breathe one minute, do some slow breathing for six seconds out, just bring your breathing down to six for a few minutes, for example.

00:38:01: Or just stop.

00:38:03: and do nothing and be in the moment.

00:38:04: Just be like one little moment of mindfulness and just being in the moment.

00:38:08: These are just three examples, for example.

00:38:10: But if you do that regularly during the day, automatically you'll be less hyper aroused over time if you make it in your habits and that will have a positive impact on your sleep regeneration.

00:38:24: Super advice.

00:38:25: A good start and some breaks during the day.

00:38:29: I think that's something that all can do.

00:38:32: And then I have to get a little personal, because of course we are wondering, do you sleep well yourself?

00:38:38: And what are your hacks for sleeping?

00:38:42: I'm a good sleeper.

00:38:43: Yeah, so I'm not the kind of person who started all this because I was a bad sleeper.

00:38:47: I've always been a good sleeper.

00:38:50: And I also sleep very positive about my sleep.

00:38:53: So even after everybody can have a bad night, I can have from time to time a bad night.

00:38:58: What are my hacks?

00:38:59: If I have a lot of things going on and I've been to a bit of stress lately, I... stretch before going to bed, and then I decide for myself, okay, all those problems, I'm going to leave them in the day, and I'm deciding here and now that I'm not going to take them with me in the night, because I will not solve them by being awake about it, or ruminating about them during the night.

00:39:24: So that's really a mindset I have for myself.

00:39:28: The ritual.

00:39:29: I just told you, that's what on the morning.

00:39:31: I do it every morning, it's part of my habits.

00:39:34: It's just how I wake up, but that's the one, the one I shared.

00:39:37: It's mine.

00:39:39: So, and yeah, I have a busy schedule.

00:39:41: I have a lot of things going on, but I do take those micro breaks and I'm... pretty philosophical way of living also.

00:39:49: If things go wrong, I tend to just stop and say, okay, like, wait, okay, that's how can we manage these things?

00:39:56: And of course, that's the positive spiral.

00:39:59: The more you care for your sleep, the better you'll have access to access to those functions, allowing you to do metacognition, to rationalize, to take distance, to solve problems, your problem solving ability.

00:40:14: goes up so much if you care for your sleep.

00:40:17: So it's about being in a positive virtuous cycle rather than keeping yourself down in the vicious circle of bad sleeping, complaining about it and not doing anything about it.

00:40:32: It's allowing people also to work in you and pull the plug as a first small step to general and gradually enlightenment.

00:40:40: Yeah, I've always been like that in my life.

00:40:44: Basically, even with menopause, pure menopause, all the things, I continued sleeping more.

00:40:52: I'm really practicing what I preach, actually.

00:40:55: I do that.

00:40:58: That is very nice.

00:41:00: We have to say you're a good sleeper, but then you also facilitate good sleep.

00:41:06: And I think the routine you described in the morning is again something that can be done by by almost everybody.

00:41:14: But that is the last issue of this podcast because we're talking about not the responsibility, I'd say the possibility of the individual to influence his or her sleep in a positive way.

00:41:30: It is also something that societies should facilitate, don't you think?

00:41:35: I mean, we have sleep on a private basis, but I also think that how we organise our societies at the present is actually not making it easy to sleep very well.

00:41:49: Yes, I couldn't agree more with you.

00:41:53: And firstly, we are still too much an early bird society, as though most of at least Western European population is like more neutral to later chronotypes.

00:42:04: So you should allow as an employer, you should allow people much more to work also more accordingly to the chronotype.

00:42:13: It would be so good for performance and well-being, etc.

00:42:17: So that would be a very important point.

00:42:19: I think also employers should be more attentive.

00:42:22: to the lightening into the work spaces because people do not work in well lit rooms and so they get up in the morning and in definitely winter and autumn it's dark so they just get into the cars and then they go into offices or whatever factories that are not.

00:42:40: I thought I had good lightning and then the night electricity goes on and the smartphones comes up.

00:42:46: So yes, I think employers also have a very important role to play in good lightning on the workflow and of course too.

00:42:54: And that's what you say, sleep on a private basis.

00:42:56: But no, it's so important that society, politicians and of course employers also do everything they can to help people sleep.

00:43:07: because everybody's going to benefit from it.

00:43:10: Another of these numbers is that, for example, there's a lot of research done on the economic impact of sleep deprivation, and on average, the employer will pay about two thousand, two thousand five hundred euros per employee per year if they don't take care of the sleep.

00:43:33: of the employer.

00:43:34: So it costs a lot to society, it costs a lot to presentism, absenteeism costs a lot to employer too.

00:43:41: So it's definitely something that we have to bring sleep out of the bedrooms because it's not private matter at all.

00:43:51: I think that was very nicely put to say that sleep is valuable for the individual, but also for the society and also actually in money.

00:44:02: So we need to have a rethinking that you should facilitate for being awake when you are awake and for sleeping when you should be asleep.

00:44:12: Yes, and of course, and that's one thing that I work a lot with is like working shifts, shift working.

00:44:19: There, of course, we are a twenty-four-seven society, so do any shift work.

00:44:23: And shift work is double-term in the harmful for sleep and health and brain health, for example.

00:44:31: They suffer even more because there's all this circadian, adoridum disruption, and the sleep deprivation.

00:44:36: But with all the things I do, I try to just do a little bit of... Good there and work a lot with shift purpose.

00:44:47: also companies because they need more care.

00:44:51: They even need more care.

00:44:53: They need to have more tools and more explanation because they're even more sensitive to their sleep and brain health.

00:45:05: Sleep is definitely on the agenda and we are so happy to have such enthusiasts, I have to say, and also so competent persons among us, like you, who are promoting the importance of sleep and also try to change what is the conditions for sleep in the society.

00:45:24: Thank you very much.

00:45:25: And I have to say I really enjoyed this discussion.

00:45:28: I wish very nice meeting you.

00:45:30: I also have to say thank you to our listeners for joining us on the Brain Health Mission podcast.

00:45:36: And I wish you all the best again.

00:45:38: I really hope some editor listened to this and the publisher are going to publish you in international languages because I think the more people are aware of the meaning of sleep, the better they also will be sleeping.

00:45:52: So thanks again for joining us and if you listened and enjoyed the episode, follow us on your preferred podcast platform.

00:45:59: Share it with your network and stay tuned for more exciting conversations on brain health.

00:46:05: Thank you all.

00:46:06: Thank you also.

00:46:12: You've been listening to the Brain Health Mission podcast where science meets action for a healthier brain.

00:46:17: If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to follow us on Spotify or your favorite podcast app so you never miss an update.

00:46:24: For more tools, tips and expert insights, head to brainhealthmission.org.

00:46:28: That's brainhealthmission.org.

00:46:31: A special thank you to our supporting partner Roche for supporting our mission.

00:46:36: Until next time, take care of your brain.

00:46:38: It's the only one you've got.