Neurotechnology – What is it and what’s in it for our brain health?

00:00:03: Welcome to the Brain Health Mission Podcast, exploring how science policy

00:00:07: and everyday choices

00:00:09: shape the health of your brain.

00:00:10: And what you can do to protect it?

00:00:14: Hello!

00:00:15: And welcome back to The Brain Health mission podcast where You Can Listen To Topics About Brain Health about the excitement Of new facts in Science regarding the brain And today we are going to talk about when brain meets technology.

00:00:37: I'm your host, Dr Janna Midlfart-Hoff, a neurologist and treasurer of the European Academy of Neurology.

00:00:45: Today

00:00:45: will try talking about neurotechnology.

00:00:49: We'll try to maneuver between borderless optimism and constrained pessimism.

00:00:55: Joining me as our special guest is Dr Virginia Mayhew.

00:01:00: Welcome Virginia!

00:01:01: Thank you so much Jana, it's great to be here.

00:01:06: Virginia before we start with the facts and difficulties discussion probably also interesting part We need know who are you?

00:01:16: Of course, yeah.

00:01:18: So I direct the Neurotechnology Program at The Center for Future Generations CFG.

00:01:24: We're an independent think tank based in Brussels and we are dedicated to helping policymakers understand and govern emerging technologies obviously including neurotechnology.

00:01:36: Our goal is to make sure that potentially disruptive but also really exciting technologies develop responsibly To benefit everyone.

00:01:45: Sounds Very great, sounds very complicated.

00:01:48: I'm so happy to have you here in Virginia!

00:01:52: In the Brain Health Mission podcast.

00:01:55: this borderline between technology and rology... ...and brain health is considered very difficult to grasp.

00:02:05: So before we start with our real topics could you enlighten us?

00:02:11: Could you say what is actually neuro-technology?

00:02:15: Could you explain that in a simple way to a non-tech person like myself?

00:02:19: Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:21: Neurotech is really broad term.

00:02:23: so the simple definition Is it's device or system That can read and write To brain or nervous system.

00:02:31: So what this means?

00:02:33: It either recording data about the brain And what its doing Or stimulating or influencing The brain or the nervous system In body Sometimes both at once.

00:02:45: Sounds easy when you tell it like that.

00:02:49: But I know, It's also complicated and some of us many others probably associate neuro technology with futuristic implants.

00:02:59: You know cyborgs?

00:03:01: All these films science fiction films.

00:03:04: but actually what we do not think about is That this has a massive role in everyday brain health already Could explain What kind Of Health Data neuro technologies actually helping us to monitor already today.

00:03:19: And some even claim that neurotech could already contribute to track how fit your brain is at this moment on these days!

00:03:32: Sure, yeah.

00:03:33: So neurotechnology has actually existed already for over a hundred years and it's been widely used in research and clinical treatments and diagnostics throughout that time.

00:03:43: so electroencephalography or EEG is probably one of the most famous activity of the brain through the scalp.

00:03:52: And it was invented in the nineteen twenties, It's been used for everything from mapping brain function to diagnosing seizures and much more!

00:04:00: That is what we call a non-invasive technique because its sits outside this skull and doesn't require surgery.

00:04:06: You've probably also heard about the cochlear implant.

00:04:09: that's also a form of neurotechnology um...that one invasive Because device is surgically inserted into ear.

00:04:17: And another example of an invasive neurotech is deep brain stimulation, which has been used to treat Parkinson's disease since the nineteen eighties.

00:04:26: So what's happening today?

00:04:28: Is that neurotic is sort of having a moment and That's because artificial intelligence and also new materials they're making The devices more portable more comfortable safer and also more powerful.

00:04:42: so In this kind of brain fitness sphere, we're seeing a whole new range of applications from clinical areas like depression stroke rehabilitation motor recovery but also more consumer focused uses.

00:04:56: Like tracking attention sleep and stress what I specialize in, and the non-invasive space.

00:05:03: We're seeing EEG being built into things like headphones and earbuds and glasses and even jewelry and tattoos.

00:05:12: And these devices are a really cutting edge um...and they can monitor patterns of brain activity that are associated with things like focus relaxation fatigue stress and sleep Um..And based on that monitoring They generate cognitive metrics, which can tell you about like your attention score or stress level.

00:05:35: And that often they're marketed as a fit bit for the brain and You could also get devices that actually give feedback instantaneously.

00:05:44: so For instance Helping to learn how stay focused by playing game where have keep ball in air just thinking it And some even do use stimulation, actually to influence your mental state as well.

00:05:57: So yeah this whole brain fitness area it's tracking and training these kinds of patterns for general wellness over time.

00:06:07: That was very good argument because I Let's think that many of us do not see we have used EEG for ages already.

00:06:17: We don't think about it as neuro-technology.

00:06:20: and the way you paved the connection between EEG, which has been widely used in almost a century... And what is happening today with technological development was very clear to me!

00:06:34: I hope also to listeners like that a lot.

00:06:36: But what you are saying is that MuroTech devices actually can tell us if the brain is stressed, tired or functioning optimally today.

00:06:46: That by having an ear pod in our ears with EEG in it and some other technology we can already measure whether something is not functioning optimially?

00:07:00: Or how does state of our brains... correctly grasped by me?

00:07:07: Pretty much.

00:07:08: So the one thing to make clear is that they're not in your standard ones you buy from, right these are new devices there coming out and You need to look for them specifically.

00:07:17: but They could be with us very soon In some places in the world already.

00:07:21: But exactly That.

00:07:22: so-so These kinds of devices their monitoring EEG And what that means Is that they looking at The brain waves that Your brain is generating as it goes about um, it's usual activities.

00:07:34: So you might have heard of alpha waves or theta waves.

00:07:37: instance in the context of meditation is actually about five types of ways and total.

00:07:43: And by picking them apart and looking at the relative prevalence Of each type of wave that tells you About what type of mental state?

00:07:52: The person isn't So.

00:07:54: for instance, if someone is relaxed you would see higher alpha waves.

00:07:58: If they're thinking really hard You might see more gamma and beta waves.

00:08:03: And if they're falling asleep or in a deep meditation Or a trance you'll see more theta and delta waves coming up.

00:08:09: so tracking these waves over time In context of what the person's doing can give you insights into the patterns of their brain, so there are tension levels how stressed they might be and their overall mental fitness.

00:08:26: So for example Are They Trying to Focus But They Keep Drifting Back Into Alpha Waves?

00:08:31: Or Are They trying To Sleep but The Delta Waves Just Keep Getting Interrupted!

00:08:35: That Can Give You Insight Into How The Brain Is Performing

00:08:40: Which is fascinating And also I have to say a little bit scary Because as you already mentioned in brief, Neurotec has established itself in the consumer market very much recently.

00:08:56: I'm happy that my AirPods are still just my Airpods and then... You have to buy specifically tools to measure like you say but even so There are many products that claim to improve these areas through neurofeedback.

00:09:14: These days, Virginia they're all over I feel in TV advertisements social media and so on.

00:09:21: but how can I or lay people distinguish between a scientifically backed brain health tool?

00:09:29: And the gadget that is just marketing?

00:09:32: do you have any suggestions for that?

00:09:35: absolutely um Absolutely.

00:09:38: The consumer market for Neurotech is quickly becoming crowded, we've identified over sixty companies with products already on the market and there's another hundred or so of products in development.

00:09:48: So this has become a big thing Yeah!

00:09:51: And actually at CFG We published a Market Study Of Consumer Neurotek and did deep dive into their business practices.

00:09:59: Please do go check it out our website if you want to learn more.

00:10:03: Yeah, it's really important to know the difference.

00:10:05: So medical devices have to pass clinical trials and they're evaluated by a notified body And most of the time they need a prescription but not always.

00:10:19: Whereas wellness devices, consumer devices don't have any such requirements They just have to pass basic product safety and data protection.

00:10:28: That's whole other counterworms by way Um...and can be sold directly to consumers on internet without prescriptions.

00:10:35: Unfortunately what we've found is that quite often For the average consumer, it's very hard to tell whether a device is legitimate medical product or if its gadget with fancy website based on what company claims.

00:10:50: So we looked in detail and found that almost forty percent of these consumer products don't provide any scientific evidence at all to prove that they work.

00:11:00: That's

00:11:01: very scary actually, I

00:11:02: don't know!

00:11:04: Yeah, thirty percent or so cite some evidence but it is not specific to their device rather like for instance about neurofeedback.

00:11:12: in general that neurofeed back is proven to work But non-necessarily that device It.

00:11:17: only one third of companies provide evidence on their specific devices.

00:11:23: So its really important for consumers who are thinking buying these and can be good to look carefully at what they claim and what evidence they have.

00:11:33: So super important, it's not enough to feature a picture of a doctor on the web page and say this doctor loves this device and recommends that to their patients!

00:11:43: And its also NOT ENOUGH TO SEE A TESTIMONIAL FROM A USER.

00:11:46: THAT SAID LIKE OH THIS DEVICE CURED MY PTSD.

00:11:49: NONE OF THAT IS ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

00:11:52: SO THE BEST THING FOR A CONSUMER... The best thing would be to speak to your doctor, obviously.

00:11:58: But that's not always feasible and sometimes not all doctors are familiar with the devices on the market.

00:12:04: so if you're interested in one of these what you're looking for our independently published scientific articles specifically supporting that device or that technique.

00:12:14: So it is not always easy If You don't have a scientific background.

00:12:19: but One tip Is To Go Through The Papers And Do A Control F and type the name of the device, see if it comes up.

00:12:26: And also check that these articles aren't funded by the company making the device because that could signal a conflict of interest.

00:12:36: If you're happy with that – some have over two hundred peer-reviewed papers proving they work then maybe its worth investment!

00:12:46: So, what you say is that people should be open but skeptical.

00:12:51: Don't take the picture of a handsome looking doctor at The Package for good scientific basis!

00:13:02: You need to look it up and probably if you want buy these.

00:13:06: they are a conscious process where also looks for evidence For example, by Googling PubMed all these health databases.

00:13:17: Are there any other tips you would give us?

00:13:20: Well,

00:13:22: I think that otherwise...I Think more broadly these devices.

00:13:26: I think they can be really helpful for general health and wellness like if you're struggling with Sleep but it's not quite to the level of insomnia or if you have You know your stressed And etc.

00:13:37: But ultimately If you're really struggling With something in your life Like here at you haven't somnia Or you're having severe headaches?

00:13:44: Or anything like That The best thing Really is to talk To a doctor because really deadly Can get you treatment and a wellness device isn't necessarily going to treat that for you, so... That's the best advice.

00:13:57: I think it is very important not as a warning but as a disclaimer or something like this.

00:14:06: if any listeners are suffering from severe conditions these tools aren't be the treatment for you.

00:14:13: You need to see somebody and clear out what is actually going on here, What are your main problems?

00:14:20: And why?

00:14:21: Then

00:14:22: perhaps these tools can be used besides other kinds of treatments in a therapeutic phase.

00:14:30: I think that's important!

00:14:32: Also like what you said about not being tempted by nice pictures It's like when you consider a book, isn't it?

00:14:42: That if its recommended by a reviewer then or... Then you think okay.

00:14:47: Might be good and there are plenty of other authors saying this is such a fantastic book And I cried all the way in that new say Okay!

00:14:55: How much is that

00:14:56: worth?!

00:14:57: So.. Its a jungle out there you're saying and i'm very glad your helping us in navigating because Of course these tools can be useful and therefore an interesting question for me.

00:15:13: Do you use any new attack yourself?

00:15:16: In short, no.

00:15:19: I do own several devices which i've purchased mainly for demonstrations so I take them to conferences and get people try them And have used a lot in that context Which has been fascinating seeing how different people the metrics come out on how they interact with them.

00:15:36: Personally don't really feel like need them because... I dont' feel like needed device to help me meditate For instance one of main uses with sleep or focus myself.

00:15:48: So, you know I'm just not the target audience and...I will say that i did briefly use a vagus nerve stimulator when I suffered from stress and migraines for awhile And it didn't help at all.

00:16:00: but since then I've gotten those under control through diet & meditation.

00:16:04: so I don't really feel any need to do this.

00:16:08: And we have to bear in mind that also neuro-technology has a placebo effect.

00:16:16: We see that in drugs, and why shouldn't it be neuro-technology too?

00:16:19: That just by using a device... ...that is supposed to help you sleep better or relax.

00:16:26: Or do have less migraine!

00:16:28: To focus might help you improve.

00:16:33: And this is completely different effect from the device itself I will say.

00:16:38: but It's good fact.

00:16:39: we use many parts of medicine & life

00:16:43: The power of the brain.

00:16:45: Yes, exactly!

00:16:49: It's a drug that placebo is connected to or tool.

00:16:53: it's same.

00:16:55: but then again you shouldn't pay a lot because negative aspect with this these things are often quite costly and therefore we have skeptical about what is offered.

00:17:16: and also if you are considering buying something that's very expensive, definitely check out the research or evidence connected to it.

00:17:26: And talk with someone who knows whether they will work for you!

00:17:31: Another aspect in society at these days... is longevity.

00:17:38: It's very hyped up, I think.

00:17:39: Virginia is used about everything from cosmetical creams to vitamin supplements but in the brain context because we are the Brain Health podcast you know?

00:17:51: The aim is often to say that we should keep our minds as sharp into our eighties and nineties earlier life or at least try to preserve the brain function.

00:18:06: Is there a specific way we can use neuro-technology, as you know it?

00:18:12: Like the biofeedback or things like that to build our so called cognitive resilience.

00:18:20: Namely their ability to endure the strains of life?

00:18:25: Can we sort of strengthen our brain To meet the challenges that will occur during life So that in older age can be as vital in our brain as possible.

00:18:40: And is there one thing, particularly you would like to mention?

00:18:44: In that context

00:18:46: definitely so.

00:18:47: obviously I think there's a lot we could do and when it comes to neurotech... So i'm not want to endorse the particular product because mostly ensuring these devices are used responsibly.

00:19:00: I will say first that, sometimes feel like these wellness devices are marketed as a bit of quick fix for issues that can probably be better addressed through healthy balanced lifestyle with the boring things.

00:19:12: Like plenty sleep exercise you know spending time with family and friends Of course And very clearly thats different from medical device right?

00:19:20: So again if your suffering form condition then a Medical Neurotechnology Device Can Be Really Really Helpful Treatment But when it comes to wellness It really depends.

00:19:31: But I am a neuroscientist still, but do you think it's incredibly cool that we now have much wider access to advanced ways of measuring and interacting with the brain?

00:19:41: So there is lot we can learn from them And i'm particularly excited about how these devices could support research.

00:19:50: so mental health obviously extremely complex And the long-term data collection that we could do through these ultra portable wearable consumer devices, Could really help researchers better understand and prevent mental disorders.

00:20:07: An even cognitive decline because We would be able to track patterns over time.

00:20:12: That can help people get treatment earlier It helps them be more personalized and it can help live a longer higher quality of life.

00:20:20: So thats one thing I'm excited about.

00:20:22: And of course, you know more broadly meditation is widely proven to be great for brain health.

00:20:28: So if Neurotek device helps you meditate better and more consistently that's already fantastic!

00:20:36: Yeah I thought... That was great because what you're saying Is there no quick fix?

00:20:42: We are the rest of our life.

00:20:46: to be healthy demands a little from every one of us.

00:20:51: And we must not think that just buy an expensive device and put it on will save you all the strains of life, but that neurotech could add additional supplement in your lifestyle social activity, physical activities all the things that we've been talking a lot about on this podcast.

00:21:16: So not being THE solution it can be a part of their solution as I understand you correctly.

00:21:23: and then... That's for the wellness.

00:21:26: devices are NOT for the therapeutic course.

00:21:32: I agree very much on that and i also think it's a nice way of saying.

00:21:37: but what is intriguing, you are saying these devices will enable us to learn more about the brain.

00:21:45: And maybe by learning developing a specific message how people can take care of their brains make people able to do so.

00:22:03: That's very intriguing, not only by using it for the personal itself but also with data that comes from.

00:22:11: it will be good as a society.

00:22:14: Very interesting!

00:22:20: We are doing a little myth-busting on The Brain Health Mission podcast because there is myths about brain and facts which Actually, not true.

00:22:34: They are fake.

00:22:35: and one of the myths about brain that irritates me the most actually Virginia is The One About Only Using Ten Percent Our Brain Capacity And That Is Nonsense.

00:22:45: We

00:22:45: Use Most Of Our Brain All The Time But we Have Different Levels Of Consciousness And Different Parts.

00:22:53: Being More Active I mean We wouldn't go around with a brain that we only use ten percent.

00:22:59: The body would not carry all the weight for so little.

00:23:04: Enough said about this, it is an misconception and I sometimes see that used in advertisements... ...that they can help you using more than ten per cent of your brain!

00:23:16: That's completely nonsense.

00:23:18: but

00:23:19: then again could the use of neurotech preserve one hundred percent?

00:23:25: we already have.

00:23:26: I mean, not thinking about the ten percent which again is it's not true.

00:23:31: but

00:23:32: could

00:23:32: any use of neurotech be useful when it comes to preventing cognitive decline or managing burnout?

00:23:39: You've already said that by collecting the data that we can get through people using these devices hypothesis and do science on that, how can we prevent brain diseases?

00:24:02: But are there any other things in particular you would like to mention?

00:24:08: Definitely, so first off I'm right there with you about the pet peeve.

00:24:12: Completely agree.

00:24:14: and actually another project we're doing is around The question of human augmentation what it might mean to augment our brains.

00:24:19: And well We're finding Is that pretty much every scientist?

00:24:22: We speak too says That trying To push the brain beyond its natural limits as Not necessarily as feasible, but when it comes to optimizing our brain function in terms of making sure that we're doing the best One example of a technology that I am excited about, and if this one comes on the European market.

00:24:50: I would probably buy it for myself is productivity tracking using cognitive metrics to track yourself while you're working or focused And this comes from having experienced burnout myself a few years ago.

00:25:05: It can sometimes be really difficult to know when you're overworking yourself, so you get into a zone and you get really focused and you can stress yourself out and exhaust yourself.

00:25:14: in setting those limits especially when there's so much pressure it could be hard.

00:25:19: So one class of devices monitors your brain while working And it looks for signs that you're getting tired or pushing yourself past your limits.

00:25:29: Because its not always consciously, sort of... You don't realize that consciously but the device can monitor that for you and when it senses this sends a notification on your phone.

00:25:41: And the idea is that if you're able to put in place these more regular breaks earlier than getting exhausted, they can help prevent burnout and prevent you from getting long-term stress disorders which ultimately also lead to cognitive decline.

00:25:57: So I think it's a really exciting use case personally—that probably one thing.

00:26:05: Again, it's still early days though.

00:26:07: You know this is still an early technology So we don't have a lot of long-term evidence yet to prove This but I think the idea of It anyway Is really exciting?

00:26:16: It's very exciting and And i Think it can be useful as you say.

00:26:21: then again i have To belittle The devil's advocate in this saying that Already the greek said no thyself We haven't talked about That.

00:26:30: But a neurotech or if We shouldn't call it a neurotech, we should call it... A body technological device that a lot of people use are watches.

00:26:39: That would register your sleep and sometimes I get quite frustrated.

00:26:44: i have a very close friend of mine And she will come in say ''I slept terrible this night''.

00:26:50: and I said okay you feel bad?

00:26:52: She says no but the watch is telling me my sleep was terrible!

00:27:03: If you slept terribly, then you know.

00:27:06: You will feel that and you shouldn't let a watch or whatever dictate to to say that you've slept badly.

00:27:16: So, it's... You see the distinguishment and but then again like you said burnout or something that is more of a chronicle state than these devices probably could be useful?

00:27:27: But then again we need to see them as tools not as monitors with absolute truth because I don't know if you agree, but i think we have to enable people feel it for themselves.

00:27:45: This is too much!

00:27:47: You can't depend on a device telling when really need say no the next task.

00:27:55: Yeah...I completely agree and wanted bring that up.

00:27:58: actually sort of risk, shall we say.

00:28:02: these devices is when they provide you information or metrics that you don't necessarily feel intuitively and it disagrees.

00:28:09: You gave the example with a sleep band but you might very well have the same thing with a neuro device.

00:28:14: that's telling you oh your exhausted actually like I feel fine right now.

00:28:18: so that kind of a risk?

00:28:21: We do not yet know really what may lead to in terms maybe making wrong decisions about health.

00:28:29: I think the other thing as well is that, you know what's funny about how a lot of these companies market themselves.

00:28:38: Is it they market themself specifically to say?

00:28:41: That there are empowering You To Know Yourself Better By Providing You Access To A Type Of Data You've Never Known Before And That Can Make You More Intuitive About Yourself.

00:28:51: So I can see the argument there, because maybe you're not very introspective and now that device is giving you a signal.

00:28:59: And oh actually it's right!

00:29:02: But again back to your point.

00:29:03: we really just don't know yet... ...and i think will depend on how trust worthy and genuinely well the devices operating.

00:29:14: so its a very nice sense sort of area where need be careful about.

00:29:20: I

00:29:21: agree very much.

00:29:23: That was nicely put, actually!

00:29:26: Before we started recording you told me that the neural data devices or the data that they can collect are some of the most sensitive data a person can generate?

00:29:39: We're talking about data on sleep and physical activity.

00:29:44: These can be used by the individual, but we also know that there are commercial interests.

00:29:49: There are insurance companies and other actors in this market who would love to know about your health profile.

00:30:03: You said that the legal framework is still full of loopholes.

00:30:09: What needs to be done and what should listeners be aware?

00:30:12: Yeah, so this really important one key loophole there's a couple people need Especially if a device is not medically certified, so it's consumer-device like the ones we've mostly talked about.

00:30:27: Then data collecting isn't automatically classed as health data Not necessarily even sensitive data under GDPR.

00:30:35: So that means its not subject to same rigorous privacy and security standards As your medical data is.

00:30:44: That

00:30:44: is great.

00:30:44: Can you say once again commercial devices?

00:30:49: are not subjected to the same GDPR as medical devices.

00:30:54: That's true?

00:30:55: That's correct, yes and it's... The thing is if its in consumer space that kind of upto company how they want to classify their device right now because it isn't specified in GDPR.

00:31:06: So some companies might treat with higher data protection standards.

00:31:09: Some do but don't all.

00:31:12: And actually unfortunately there was an analysis recently by the Neuro rights foundation which found many companies either explicitly or through language on their terms and conditions that wasn't super clear, reserve the right to transfer or sell the brain data they're collecting from users.

00:31:30: And it's not really specified how or where or when they might do that.

00:31:34: So yeah It is important be aware of this.

00:31:40: Neural Data is extremely sensitive for real information about someone's mental state as we've talked about, but also that means their vulnerabilities potentially or if they're at risk of a mental disorder or neurological disorder.

00:31:54: So indeed knowing who has access to the data how it is being stored and then could be used and resold and transferred?

00:32:03: For instance you mentioned by an insurance company maybe It's really, really critical that we are not compromising people's rights by collecting this type of data.

00:32:20: And what can we do?

00:32:21: Because this is actually getting me a bit anxious I have to say!

00:32:27: Yeah, it's the most important issue that those of us who are working in the field of neurotech governance are dealing with right now.

00:32:34: We're actually calling for an amendment to the GDPR to specify that brain data should have the highest protections possible.

00:32:45: we hope that will get traction and EU at the moment.

00:32:51: You know, again back to the consumer what can we do?

00:32:53: The best thing is to inform yourself and look really critically at that device.

00:32:57: make sure it's a reputable company that specifies exactly what they're doing.

00:33:01: if you say They treat data as health data That already great because Health Data has specific legal protections.

00:33:09: But from my brain-health perspective Is Neurotech meant be designed change our biology, or is it meant to either help you with an existing disease?

00:33:26: Or through providing us with data we need to make better health choices in our lives.

00:33:33: Is a takeover versus empowering so-to say?

00:33:37: Of course, I'm going to say it's a bit of both.

00:33:41: We actually have a study coming on this hopefully later this year.

00:33:44: we're working on right now.

00:33:47: so you have take in two parts.

00:33:50: for the most part is pretty much a myth fall very much in the providing data to empower us category.

00:34:00: So these kinds of devices are not really powerful enough to have a significant impact on who we are as a person, they're mostly helping you take charge and learn more about yourself.

00:34:11: One exception, as I mentioned is if the metrics that you get don't align with what you feel in your internal perception.

00:34:18: That could make you feel a bit weird about yourself.

00:34:20: Now that's definitely true.

00:34:22: So that-that's one.

00:34:23: but generally speaking they're not gonna drastically change You as a person and you still have the power to overwrite or stop using it.

00:34:32: But there is the other category you mentioned, that's changing our biology category.

00:34:36: And things do get a bit more complex because again this isn't in consumer space.

00:34:41: so for people with medical condition who use invasive stimulation techniques surgically implanting something into their brain and stimulating That can sometimes have unpredictable effects.

00:34:54: So studies have shown that deep brain stimulation patients who had an electrode deep in the brain to control their Parkinson's disease occasionally have side effects of personality changes or mania, for instance.

00:35:08: So that is something where we're starting to have impact potentially on the person.

00:35:13: and then... Of course there's a consent question because they consented with who they were at the time are still the same person now?

00:35:21: And zooming out thinking about Elon Musk You know the two main trends in Neurotek are that it's getting less invasive and It's getting more powerful.

00:35:32: And those to go together Putting that together and thinking about, you know where these sort of Silicon Valley tech bros want to take us.

00:35:40: Talking about merging our brains with computers someday to make this all super thinkers

00:35:47: etc.,

00:35:47: I mean we're a very long way off from that.

00:35:50: still let's be realistic because invasive devices are really for people who need them no matter what Elon Musk says.

00:36:00: But technology does accelerate, it gets better and faster.

00:36:04: We just don't know where we might end up in say ten years when these devices are broader or more developed etc...

00:36:15: And still do not know what that will do to our brain because the brain has undergone very little development actually for thousands of years.

00:36:27: The brain is still very much organized as used to be.

00:36:30: There has been some alterations, of course during the thousand years we have adapted... ...to surroundings and so on but still work at a level that our forefathers many thousands ago did too The way they react to stimuli If by enhancing like Ilham Muskie saying if it means brain is going to work very hard all the time, meaning being focused on tasks or being able to do PC work.

00:37:07: We don't know how our brain reacts because as for now we see that it's necessary to have these breaks and a variation in what you're doing.

00:37:17: so it might be... Perhaps good for the society that you are able to work eighteen hours a day, but I'm too keep awake.

00:37:32: For instance or something like that... But it's not for sure.

00:37:36: this is in trend with what your brain how your brain works and it has developed.

00:37:45: That is an interesting thing, so I'm happy that you say this isn't happening from one day to another even though there are people claiming that!

00:37:55: We need the time because we have to see what technology can do for us but also look at our brains in the long run.

00:38:05: Do

00:38:06: you agree

00:38:06: with that?

00:38:07: I completely agree.

00:38:08: That's exactly right, for now what we can probably say is this kind of technology can help you rest better which in turn make perhaps more efficient and live a better life but in terms pushing to be mentally fit etc... We're not really sure yet about where it will go.

00:38:31: But Be aware of that, and we probably need to have the discussion.

00:38:36: That's why it is so very important work you are doing in Virginia... ...that both trying to influence stakeholders try to show legal effects on this,... ...the necessity for integrity of individuals but also pointing out.... ....we need a close follow-up about what was happening and there were many initiatives which needed closely monitored.

00:39:04: But if we end up in a more positive tone, even though we have said it is lot of possibilities.

00:39:12: We've also said that... If you have little doses of skepticism with you You might find devices which can help you a lot but need to be aware how they are done and those behind work with your data.

00:39:34: If there is one thing that you would like to see for the future, we are not fortune tellers here.

00:39:39: But okay say in five years... Is it something that you're waiting very eagerly for?

00:39:46: That you'd like come true?

00:39:50: Definitely!

00:39:52: I've mentioned this a couple of times but i do really think these wearable devices have a lot potential to complement healthcare and actually support better quality of life But I think the few things need to happen first for that, so be possible.

00:40:07: So what i'd really love to see is we have a new legal framework which allows these wellness devices to have more oversight and structure.

00:40:19: Things like stricter rules on marketing clear interpretation of data protection also some labeling criteria being able the consumer, the information that they really need to make an informed decision.

00:40:34: Just like we do with foods and energy labels for instance... And out of all this what I'd want you see is provide a pathway For these consumer wellness devices To contribute health care Ideally via electronic health record.

00:40:50: Like i said data could be super valuable.

00:40:52: We needed it very secure And we actually have the law in place already, which is the upcoming European health data space.

00:41:00: Um and it

00:41:01: has-it

00:41:02: has a basis for this—for wearable devices to be part of the electronic health record but could be a meaningful compliment to, you know when they see a patient in the office and they're evaluating them because they've been struggling with something.

00:41:23: They can look perhaps one day...they might be able to look at their historical brain data over the past few months and see what's been going on.

00:41:32: so that's-that's what I'd love to see is that we manage to strike the right balance between both providing a bit more scrutiny to sort of mitigate some of these risks that we're concerned about for consumers, while providing them a way to really actually deliver and be helpful not just day-to-day life but also clinical practice in healthcare.

00:41:55: Great!

00:41:57: So to sum up, neuro technology as I understand you, Virginia should be viewed with optimism... ...but also sound skepticism both on individual level.

00:42:10: Even though the packaging is fancy, it doesn't mean that the wise is working or good for you and It's always good to have medical advice if You have something.

00:42:23: That is really bothering you And you need treatment more than then wellness.

00:42:29: Still on a societal level?

00:42:31: It's important to ask where are the data going?

00:42:36: how Are they used and what are they collected for if not only for my well-being, to see whether I meditate enough or sleep long enough.

00:42:48: Perhaps all of us should on a regular basis ask our lawmakers and authorities what they are doing to control this part in the health care wellness system?

00:43:03: Where are the data coming from?

00:43:04: And you already said that European health space might be an important way of regulating this.

00:43:11: Yeah,

00:43:11: exactly.

00:43:13: Are there any other things you

00:43:14: would like to add?

00:43:17: I don't think there's anything i'd like to Maybe just to end on a final thought is that, you know the brain is fascinating and complex.

00:43:27: And we've learned a lot through trial-and-error of figuring out how best take care of it.

00:43:31: I think neuro technology genuinely could be A whole new frontier in learning so much more about The Brain but It also might raise questions That were not prepared know how to answer or deal with.

00:43:45: So we're really starting entering entirely new and uncharted territory, which is both really exciting and very scary Which makes all the points before I think are more important.

00:43:57: That was beautifully summed up And i really hope that you can have as a guest in couple of years.

00:44:02: Then tell us about what we do actually Both in legal and individual aspect.

00:44:08: Also if u used any more neurotec yourself

00:44:13: That would be nice.

00:44:15: So, thank you again Virginia for this discussion and having me here.

00:44:21: I have to say that i'm a little bit more optimistic anxious about how important it is to really follow what's happening and not just say this is a sector going to develop on its own.

00:44:38: So I'm extremely happy that we have persons like you who are interested, competent in these fields and doing the watchdog job for all of us.

00:44:50: Thanks to our listeners for joining us on the Brain Health Mission podcast.

00:44:54: And if you enjoyed this episode and are interested in brain health, follow us on your preferred podcast platform share it with your network and stay tuned for more conversations

00:45:05: or

00:45:05: brain health.

00:45:07: Thank You Virginia!

00:45:08: Thank you so much.

00:45:09: It's been a pleasure.

00:45:21: Don't forget to follow us on Spotify or your favourite podcast app so you never miss an update.

00:45:26: For more tools, tips and expert insights head to brainhealthmission.org.

00:45:31: that's BrainHealthMission.org.

00:45:33: Until next time take care of your brain.

00:45:36: it is the only one you've got.